Frank Cody Interview : Smooth Jazz Now

Frank Cody - Behind the Mic For August
August 2, 2004 - Our 'Behind the Mic' feature is all about talking to the innovators in Smooth Jazz broadcasting. Whether it be Music Directors, Program Directors or on air talent our mission has always been the same - find the people who can take this format to the next level. Interestingly, we may not even be talking about Smooth Jazz if it wasn't for our special guest this month, Frank Cody. He was the man who made the format successful at KTWV The Wave in L.A. back in 1987. He later started the biggest Smooth Jazz consulting firm on the planet, Broadcast Architecture, and now along with Hyman Katz and Dave Koz runs Rendezvous Records home of Praful, Marc Antoine and Michael Lington. We talked to Cody via phone on July 27.

John Beaudin - Frank, it is great to finally be talking to you after all of these years.

Frank Cody - John, it is really great the work that you are doing up in Canada in Smooth Jazz.

John - I have to tell you my favorite Frank Cody story. In 1989, I finally got to work for one of my favorite companies in Canadian broadcasting, CHUM. They hired me to consult on a new NAC license. So, here I was at my first board meeting and one guy in the room after he found out that I was the token expert in the genre shook my hand and said, "Oh, you must be Frank Cody."

Frank - (Laughing)

John - (laughing) Of course I was familiar with your work and let me say, hell, everyone in the genre was familiar with your work. Frank, I have to tell you and I don't say this very often but you are a real hero to me.

Frank - Thanks a lot John.

(left to right) Frank Cody of Rendezvous Records, Carol Archer of R&R Magazine, Michael Lington, Dave Koz and Jamie Young of KTWV the Wave in L.A.

John - So, you got The Wave started in 1987 from there you did Broadcast Architecture and now you are running Rendezvous Records with Hyman Katz and Dave Koz. Were you looking for a new challenge when it came to Rendezvous? I know you know the business front and back but this is a new side for you.

Frank - John that is an excellent question. In my life I have always been most satisfied when I have been challenged and consequently I have had a checkered career and I have gone through various formats and I have had success in AOR, progressive radio and I was at NBC at The Source. I figured out a long time ago that the trick is to hire really great people and you follow your heart. You give those good people the resources they need and good things will happen if you are patient. I was very, very fortunate in that The Wave clicked as much as it did. We launched it in 1987 and that was a spring board to go out and launch Broadcast Architecture. I think a lot of people don't know that it is famous for consulting Smooth Jazz radio stations.

John - Well, you would be hard pressed to find a Broadcaster who doesn't know that.

Frank - I have to give a lot of credit to Allen Kepler who is now the President and the GM. We had hired him from Chicago.

John - Yes, he was at WNUA.

Frank - We were expanding and we started a station in Japan called J-Wave. They wanted a variation of The Wave in L.A. in Tokyo. We were producing finished product in English for them. At one point we were producing twenty-five hours a week and Allen headed that up. He became highly aware of what works and what doesn't.

John - yes, I know Allen and I interviewed him a few years ago and met him in person when we launched The Breeze in Calgary.

Frank - Well, he is a really good person. I know B.A. takes a lot of bashing because people feel that it is so conservative but they reflect what is happening at the stations and what the core audience wants. Their job is to make radio stations successful. There will never be enough music to satisfy the super fans or the musicians or the record companies and I understand that. I have gone through five or six mergers. We went from Pyramid to Chancellor to AM/FM to Clear Channel and the company kept getting bigger and bigger. We were a wholly owned subsidiary of Clear Channel. After a while I just felt that I wanted a new challenge, I just wanted something new. I worked with Paul Goldstein and he was my partner along with Chris Brodie. We were tremendously successful and I just felt it was time to move on. It just so happened that I had grown close to Dave Koz. He was the very first artist to ever come out to Broadcast Architecture in Princeton, New Jersey and visit our offices. He came out there with his saxophone and his mother's chocolate chip cookies and a friendship was started. I was actually introduced to Dave by Paul Goldstein and Broadcast Architecture ended up consulting the Dave Koz radio show which is now one of the biggest Smooth Jazz shows in the world. Dave now has Radio Koz.com where they take the program and repurpose it and reprogram an entire channel.

John - So how did it get to Rendezvous Records?

Frank - Well, I met Dave and his partner, Hyman Katz, who I have admired for years. He was responsible for breaking acts like Keiko Matsui and Paul Taylor. I think Dave and Hyman are old friends from childhood. One day Dave contacted Hyman and said, "What are you doing over there, what is your secret?" It has always been Dave's dream to start a record label and he had heard that I was looking for a new challenge. Interestingly one of my visits to talk to Dave about this was on September 11th and I got a call from a friend of mine who told me to turn on the T.V. and this was kind of weird, huh? When we eventually got together Hyman, Dave and I went to a spa and talked about our core values. And how the label would be a real group endeavor and we would have people working for us that would be fully engaged. We wanted to hire people who had the same values and had the same concept of humanity and relationships. The bottom line is we wanted to be good and do good work.

John - How long did it take to come up with the name?

Frank - Oh, it took us weeks to come up with the name. We came up with lots of great names but many of them were either taken or they didn't translate well into the internet usage or they didn't say the right thing. We finally came up with Rendezvous and amazingly it wasn't taken. Our first endeavor was actually The Concert For Peace which was a Wave concert. Dave, Hyman and I talked to all of those artists who were on that bill. That was a 911 event and Stevie Wonder was a surprise guest. Boney James and Kenny G were there and it was a huge affair featuring a who's who of Smooth Jazz.

John - Your first album was The Golden Slumbers project.

Part two posted August 8, 2004

Frank - Yes, it was a really big hit. It was nominated for a Grammy (laughing) so we thought this was pretty good coming out of the gate. We are growing at a really nice rate now and clearly an independent label and we are not like the majors and I think that is a huge advantage. Jay Boberg of MCA records said something in one of the trade papers and that was the only people having any fun right now are the independent labels because the major companies are very busy in the middle of consolidation, mergers and a lot of people are being let go because there is a lot of downsizing. A lot of people are not concerned about music and entertaining people as much as they are concerned about keeping their jobs and staying afloat. Being a smaller company we can move very quickly, we can be nimble where a major company has to have meetings and things have to go through departments. If we find someone and we think that they're really worthy of the exposure we can sign them and get their release out probably faster than certainly any major record company.

John - Well, in the R&R top 10 you have two Rendezvous artists, you're doing ok!

Frank - That's right and with Wayman Tisdale entering the charts we have great movement there as well.

John - Well, I have to admit the smaller independents have been easy for me to deal with. The larger labels in Canada are very overwhelmed, their staff are overworked and most of the time when I ask for an interview I don't even get an answer. I usually deal with the U.S. labels or managers. Tell me more about the Wayman Tisdale release?

Frank - Well, we just did an in store with six hundred people in Baltimore a couple of days ago and next week it's set to debut at number four on the Billboard Contemporary Jazz charts. That's right beside Norah Jones and Jamie Cullum so we have another hit on our hands with that one. He is a perfect example of the type of person that we want on our label. He's an incredibly charismatic, positive guy who's out on tour right now with Dave (Koz) along with Jonathan Butler and Rick Braun.

John - Well, Dave is very much that type of guys he's incredibly personable and kind. He was our 'Artist of the Month.' I do believe it was six months ago.

Frank - Yeah, I saw that.

John - Dave to me is simply infectious. You get off the phone with the guy and you want more. He's plugged into something good!

Frank - (laughing) The guy you talked to is the same guy that comes in to our office and the same guy that you'll see at The Wave studios in L.A. and the same guy who you see going into the studio to record his Dave Koz radio show. He sticks around for an hour and a half signing autographs after a show.

John - Well, I talked to a lot of broadcasters in this field and let me tell you I've heard a few interesting stories of course most of them come from the world of Rock but I've heard a few good juicy stories from the Smooth Jazz world but when it comes to Dave (Koz) people just like the guy.

Frank - Yeah! I think this format and Country more than any other format attracts real quality people. The Smooth Jazz format has some very caring, high minded people who respect the audience and the other musicians. I've worked in other formats like Rock and CHR.

John - Lets keep the history of Rendezvous going. Lets continue the story after the release of the 'Golden Slumbers' album.

Frank - Well, we were looking for people that might become available, who's contracts were coming up or just unsigned talent. We heard that Marc Antoine might be available and all three of us deeply admired his talent. Marc is very unique I don't think that there's anyone quite like him because of his classical training and the fact that he's a Frenchman who played on the streets and came to the States and did studio work and he's really paid his dues. Now he lives in Spain. When I was at Broadcast Architecture his music always caught my attention and it was great that music that was that fine would test so well with the audience. In analyzing it I realized that his music was always passionate and melodic so I always thought there was something very special about him. His music can have Flamenco or Classical leanings and sometimes it's hard to pin down. On his Rendezvous debut there are some catchy, zippy little songs that are happy tunes that are very typical of him.

John - Well, the title tune 'Mediterraneo' for instance is very much like that.

Frank - Oh Yeah, exactly. There are also tracks on there like 'Gotham' that are dark and mysterious and cinematic. So anyway we met with him and put a deal together and I'm really pleased to see that we're on the second single and the album has been a big success. He has a great life, a wonderful career, a wonderful wife and family and he gets to live where he wants to live.

John - Did you give Marc help on the album as to which types of songs would work?

Frank - He would bring us material and ask for guidance and the only major advice that I gave him was that I pointed out to him what the most played tracks were for him on radio. The ones that had scored the highest so I sat down with him and asked him what all of these high testing songs have in common.

John - So tunes like 'Sunland?'

Frank - Exactly and I asked him what was the common thread of these songs and he said that the high testing tunes were the more passionate of his material and certainly the most memorable melodies. So my advice was that's it! That is how you most easily connect with your audience to go make music. We brought in Mike Pela to mix the album and he is producer that works with Sade. We brought him in because we thought this album was a turning point for Marc's career and we thought it would make sense to bring in someone of Mike's caliber. I think at first Marc was some what suspicious because he had people he worked with in the past. Marc is really happy that he went with Mike.

John - Praful followed right?

Frank - Yes. I have this friend who now works for us in A&R. In fact, he is the guy who put the lounge album together for us. His name is Mark Gorbulew and he had a parallel career and he was in progressive Rock radio in Washington, D.C and then headed off into the world of dance. He has been the resident DJ in the longest running club in New York called 'Au-Bar.' He would provide us with music at various conventions and he would head off to the Holland dance convention or he was off to Cannes. He would send me the best of what he would discover. Of the fifty or sixty albums he sent me, one was Praful and the album was called 'One Day Deep.' It hadn't been released outside of Holland yet and he had problems with the distribution company there as well. So I listened to the album and I couldn't believe it. I had never heard anything like it!

John - Did you know you had something right away?

Frank - Well, I have to say it really grabbed me right away. It was interesting, it sounded so different yet so familiar and so comfortable. In other words it was really approachable and really easy for me to hear. That album is very thick layered and very complex and sometimes people listen to it for the first time and just think it's nice but something happens the third or fourth time and worlds open up. It is just an amazing work of art. One song in particular really hit me and that was 'Sigh.' We released that album and the song 'Sigh' was ground breaking. He comes from a different place and he comes from the world of Chill in club music.

John - He is a very spiritual guy. I relate to people like him very well. Praful has a lot of things going on.

Frank - Yes. He has a lot of things going on above and beyond his career including his other world music and his spiritual thing. You know, some people carry their spirituality on their sleeve but for him it is just part of who he is. He is like Dave (Koz) and he will stay there signing autographs until the last person is left.

Part three posted August 19, 2004

John - Mike Vasquez the P.D at KIFM in San Diego told me when they had their Anniversary Smooth Jazz festival Praful stole the show.

Frank - Oh Yeah. I was down there for that and I was down for KIFM's celebrations before and they always do a great job. Praful packed this place, thank goodness the fire marshall didn't show up. (laughing) He got the audience chanting and we're talking primarily adults.

John - Amazing but hey, our audience can still rock!

Frank - Yes that's true. Everyone in the audience was raising their arms. He'll have another album with us and that should come out next year.

John - Praful, 'Sigh' is a Smooth Jazz hit but then again it's not. It's Chill, it's dance and it's a whole lot of things. Is Rendezvous really a Smooth Jazz label and do you see it as more than one genre?

Frank - We know that just naturally a big percentage of what we release is going to fit with Smooth Jazz. We would be crazy not to use the roots we have in that music and what we know about that music and all the friends we have in Smooth Jazz. I know where you're going with this and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by our diversity because we will be releasing music that will not be categorized as Smooth Jazz. There are other artists that we're looking at that are out of that area. I'm a big fan of Chill and that is partly inspired by Jazz but it also has influences that come from World Music, from dance and from Electronica. That's really what Praful is all about. Not many have done that in Jazz except maybe Herbie Hancock doing 'Rocket.' Remember he had the mixers up there but that was the exception to the rule and I don't think anyone really embraced that since, except Praful. So to answer your question, yes, we will be more than a Smooth Jazz label. What we'll be looking for is a quality product for an adult audience. We are not out to do the lowest common denominator music that's for sure or quick hits.

John - So on Rendezvous Michael Lington came next.

Frank - Yes with Michael we always felt he was a guy who never really broke through and he teamed up with everybody from (Jeff) Lorber to Chuck Loeb. He wrote a ton of material so we feel we're taking him to a new level. Prior to this he'd been on some small labels, maybe he had some bad luck where distribution wasn't there.

John - Distribution is such a huge part of the machine.

Frank - Absolutely. I'm very proud of our relationship with Sony who is our distributor and they are passionate about music. If something's important to us it becomes very important to them. It's like the Wyman Tisdale project, they were excited that we signed him and when they realized what a good album it was and what the response was they just shifted everything into high gear. Distribution is really a critical aspect of any business, if you'd be talking about radio you'd be talking about the signal of the radio station that's the distribution, getting the signal out so people can hear it. If you're talking about being on-line it means you have to have a good enough server to serve the people that want to click on your site and you have to be found on enough search engines so people can find you. It's the same thing with any product whether its shampoo or coffee or recorded music, it has to be where people want it. It they want to download it then you have to make sure they can download it.

John - With distribution for some business people it involves being able to look over the mountain because some people cannot see that far ahead even though it's such a big part of it all.

Frank - I've seen that happening, yes.

John - You know what I like about Michael Lington's album 'Stay With Me' is that all the tunes on it are easy to like and from my programmers head these songs can grab you within five to ten seconds. The single 'Show Me' is like Marc Antoine's 'Mediterraneo' or Dave Koz' 'All I See Is You.'

Frank - You can get it right away and at the same time it doesn't wear out.

John - It's not just a simple hook and it's not pure sugar. I also love the Chuck Loeb tune 'Two of a Kind.'

Frank - Honestly that's my favorite track on the album. I also think it's the sexiest track on the album.

John - It's punchy and I like that. It commands attention. Isn't Chuck Loeb great!

Frank - Oh, I think Chuck Loeb is great!

John - I talked to Chuck for two hours when we did the interview. He's one of the nicest human beings I've ever talked to. He's simply a great man with a lot of depth and maybe a future Rendezvous artist?

Frank - Who knows, I think we could talk about a lot of people who are not on our label that are fantastic. Mindi Abair is like that she worked really hard at meeting everyone in the business, going around to all the stations and doing small venues in addition to having some really catchy music. Consequently, a lot of people are rooting for her to succeed!

John - I like the fact that her music appeals to a wide range of people on the old demographic scale, that's a good thing. Listen, when you were growing up Frank were the kids in your neighborhood connecting musically with their parents? I don't think it happened too much. With artists like Mindi Abair and Steve Oliver both parents and their kids can find something in there.

Frank - That's a good point.

John - Since we're on to cool people how about that Carol Archer. Isn't she an infectious person for all the right reasons?

Frank - Oh, she has been the biggest cheerleader of this music. I don't know of anyone more passionate. Hardly a day goes by that I don't talk to her.

John - Tell me Frank, really, when you were starting out with the Wave in L.A. did they think you were nuts?

Frank - (laughing) Oh yeah. People thought we were crazy for sure! There were people who said, "You've just thrown your career down the drain." There was a bet between Carl Hirsch and I'm not sure what broadcasting company he was running at the time and the head of Metromedia, Carl Brazell. Carl was the guy who believed in us and threw the dice and took the risk. If anyone hasn't received enough credit it's Carl Brazell. He believed in us and he liked the music too. You know it was pretty hard in 1986 not to be aware of David Sanborn, Jeff Lorber and Bob James. There was this great music out there that wasn't getting any airplay on any commercial radio station.

John - Lets not forget another big part of it back then the New Age, Windham Hill, Narada and Silver Wave artists.

Frank - Yeah, for lack of a better term New Age. (laughing) Windham Hill was quietly selling 40 million plus in revenue in recorded music without getting airplay outside public radio stations or college radio. When you combined that with other people that really didn't have a home back then, artists like Sade or Sting or the Paul Simon album 'Graceland.' That album was Grammy album of the year and wasn't played on commercial radio. I remember when I was leaving NBC I thought to myself adults really deserve music to listen to that isn't corny with no disrespect to traditional A.C. Some of them only had Beautiful Music (laughing) that was my parent's music and that was something I could not relate to. Music was much more important to me than it was to my parents. As you said John, it is easier for you now to relate musically to your older kids than it was maybe for us and our parents. So John, that's how The Wave all came about. I was actually hired to revitalize the Rock and Roll station KMET, it was a legendary station here in L.A. So I came here thinking that was what I was going to do but it was just too far gone. It had lost all of its credibility and its vitality. We did some research and had a big think tank in Princton, New Jersey I did this big think tank with a guy who was to become my partner, Owen Leach and we came up with several different ideas. Interestingly, The Wave was only one of those ideas.

John - What else did you come up with?

Frank - (laughing) One of the ideas was all sex talk radio and another was to go all Spanish language which was ahead of its time if you look back in 1986. That would have been an equally commercially viable format. I am glad we didn't do it and someone else did. Another idea was something called a Rock and Roll adventure which was really just a relaunch of KMET. Our idea was to have no physical studio and the studios would be traveling at all times. So we launched The Wave and Carl Hirsch called it a radio lava lamp. (laughing) He did bet some large amount of money with Carl Brizell that the format would be gone in six months.

John - Do you remember what your first book looked like?

Frank - I forget what it was. It might have been a 2.6 or a 2.8. and it was not impressive. It was really ahead of its time and it didn't really take off until I was gone. It really got its impressive numbers under Chris Brodie's program direction and Paul Goldstein's program direction. Later, I with Broadcast Architecture started consulting the station. We just gave then the information they needed to know to be able to play what the audience wanted to hear. The Wave has been one of the most profitable stations for Infiniti in the entire chain of stations. That is another think about Smooth Jazz stations, they don't cost as much to operate.

John - Well, right off the bat you don't have a morning man hanging from the ceiling making a few million dollars a year.

Frank - Yeah, it takes a lot more money to have a zoo multimillion dollar crew where they do big T.V. and billboard campaigns. Those things keep other formats a float.

John - Clear Channel takes this very seriously it seems.

Frank - Yes, they have Broadcast Architecture and they and Infiniti own more of the stations and then you have a totally different type of company like Jefferson Pilot that owns Denver in San Diego. I am sure you know from talking with Mike (Vasquez) that they have huge numbers. They are number one 12+ not 25-54 but 12+ and that is an example of a station that really does a good job because they have a good balance of a good library of music and a commitment to breaking new artists. If they jump on an artist they really believe in then they partner up with the artist, the management, the record company and they stay committed. I really admire them.

Part Four Posted September 21, 2004

John - Programming is about relationships to me - plain and simple. Get to know those artists, form a bond with them, and form a bond with the audience. Be the pulse.

Frank - I agree. There is a funny thing that happens with Smooth Jazz. If you believe in it and you're not scared of it, if you just put it on with an understanding and a passion for it then people will flock to it. I'm curious how do you as a Canadian Smooth Jazz programmer deal with the imposed percentages of Canadian music. Do you think that will ever go away? How has the Smooth Jazz thing been in Calgary or in Canada in general?

John - In Canada there are some hybrids of the format. Some of my U.S. radio friends do not look at it that way though. They have said that other than Hamilton there are no real Smooth Jazz stations in this country. In Edmonton in the eighties we had the New Age/Smooth Jazz mix that you yourself played at the Wave in L.A. so finding Can-Con was easy since we had two big formats to draw from. In Vancouver for CHUM from 1990 to 2001 the show sounded like a usual Smooth Jazz format 2 instrumentals for every vocal and though I played less New Age by the year I still found it easy to make up the Canadian content. Here in Calgary I'm not the programmer of The Breeze, I do pick some of the Canadian content but for the first time in my career I'm playing music that I haven't programmed. That took a little getting used to.There is always a fear in this format in Canada that the programming department won't get it. Paul Larsen our first Program Director wasn't a Smooth Jazz person at all. He was a good man but not a Smooth Jazz guy. Paul actually came from Country music so I think he wanted to do it all himself, to prove himself so that part I understand. The Breeze has an easier time than a real Smooth Jazz station would since it plays tons of R&B vocal songs and very little real Smooth Jazz instrumental tunes in the daytime hours. The Breeze can draw from R&B, A.C. and Smooth Jazz vocals so I really think it's easier. The Breeze is consulted by your old company Broadcast Architecture and that was obviously a really strong lifeline. It's a great sounding radio station no matter what you want to call it. Mike Shannon our new P.D. is a great person who knows the importance of forming relationships, that's what he's all about. Again he's not a Smooth Jazz guy but he's pretty damn street smart. In Canadian broadcasting Can-Con is always a concern but I don't think it's ever going away or at least not anytime soon. We have a wealth of talent in this country so the music is there, Smooth Jazz or otherwise. Clear FM in Vancouver has their own formula of Triple A and Smooth Jazz so they get to play the Canadian singer songwriter types, Cool FM in Winnipeg have lots to choose from since there are more traditional Jazz players in Canada and that their format mixed in with 30% or more Smooth Jazz, The Wave in Hamilton are the only guys who sound like a U.S. Smooth Jazz station. The only difference is they don't spin thier current instrumentals as often but I really like thier sound.

Frank - Wow, so you can find the Canadian content?

John - Oh sure, it's there.

Frank - Would you end up playing anything like the Joni Mitchell orchestral albums?

John - In Vancouver I played some Joni Mitchell but not the symphonic stuff. I have to tell you I didn't always play what was being played on the R&B charts. I had my own formula and with a 10.5 share with women it was working. If I was programming now would I use more research? Of course I would but still you have to build some of the library based on your gut. In radio some people have no sense of mood, of continuity in sound. I think that's where people go wrong.

Frank - I hear what you're saying John. I was just thinking the other day that a lot of the stuff that's still in the library, a lot of the core material is from some of those big artists like David Sanborn and we didn't have any research to go on in the beginning. We listened to it and thought that is really nice.

John - By the time you left The Wave were you doing research?

Frank - No, there was no research being done at all. I was actually at Broadcast Architecture when we developed the dial system, the mix master.

John - I know that system. Most people in Smooth Jazz do.

Frank - It was Owen Leach my partner at the time when the company was called Cody/Leach Broadcast Architecture and he had been exposed to this dial technology when he was working at J. Walter Thompson where he was the youngest Vice President in the history of the company. He showed me this device and we got together with our staff thinking how this could be applied to radio programming. At first we weren't even thinking of music, we were thinking of content like disc jockey talking to see when the audience is tuning out. Later we figured out that we could use it in music. The whole world was going digital and pencil and paper were disappearing when it came to research. So we developed the mix master and it worked not only in Smooth Jazz but in a lot of formats.

John - I like the way it works. How it works like a radio dial.

Frank - Yeah, it's very effective especially when you consider the listener being in a car and you consider how much time you'll give a song. The tough thing, the thing that everybody keeps in mind is that a little research is a dangerous thing. It can also suppress the music. Some new music people will like right away, it'll sound familiar or it'll strike a chord with them but other times it takes some exposure, it take several plays before people learn the song. I think some of the best material is that way. Chris Botti's material is like that and Praful also. You don't necessarily hear it the first time but after hearing 'Indian Summer' a few times it gets under your skin in all good ways. That's the thing about any kind of research, not just mix master but I still think it's a balance of art and science, so yeah, I agree with you on that. People have to make a commitment based on how they feel about the music. Alan Kepler and I remark about the fact that we couldn't make great programmers. We could coach a good programmer and help him be better but there's nothing we could do to just make somebody great by just giving them music research. It just doesn't work like that. It's true sure like you said some people just don't have a feel for it. You do have to rely upon your best instincts as a programmer. I think good programming comes from a balance of art and science. There is an instinct to recognizing that there is something special to a tune to offer the audience. It's nice to see the feedback and the research and know you were right. That's how you hone your instincts.

John - My test was always the ratings and the R&R charts. I would not look at the new single on the chart. I would just pick the tune on the album that moved me. That made me listen for more. The inspirational song. Let's get back to Rendezvous, we touched on this a while back, if a good singer songwriter came through your door you'd sign him?

Frank - Oh absolutely and we're looking at a young women right now. We don't want to limit ourselves. Just naturally because of who we are we are attracted to a lot of really fine talent in the area of Smooth Jazz but it goes two ways because a lot of people are interested in Rendezvous because they've seen what we've done for artists. I think because we can respond quickly there is a big advantage for someone in a style of music that is targeted towards adults. We get reports every week and we know exactly what's selling where so we see everything. If Marc Antoine is doing really well in Chicago then we can respond accordingly.

John - Tell me Frank if a new artist comes your way that you're really excited about would you test the tunes on the album or demo before signing them?

Frank - Well, we're not prepared to do that right now. It's not part of our philosophy but I wouldn't rule it out. (laughing) I'd like to apply all those things that we've learned over the years working with these successful radio stations to see what kind of music people like. I guess I'm like you, I trust my gut feeling. If you start trying to tell musicians how to make music what to play so that it will test well then you can end up with some really mediocre music. There's a great book called 'Good To Great' and the theme of that book is the enemy of great is good.

John - (laughing) Yeah!

Frank - Sometimes researching to get numbers on a radio station is all about polishing off all the rough edges. I think you could really confuse musicians if you start trying to tell them that you've discovered the Holy Grail. That maybe you have the magic formula. I think it's advantageous to do some forms of music like maintaining data bases on artists and people who like particular types of music. If you've narrowed it down to what you think are the best tracks on an album then maybe it can help you pick a single. I'm not really in favor of testing music to figure out whether we're going to sign an artist. It doesn't feel appropriate.

John - Was there a time since 1987 when you started with The Wave when you second guessed whether the format was still relevant?

Frank - I began to see how the New Age part of it was not aging as well. I think of it kind of like wine, some of it turns to vinegar and some of it is really great. There is still some of that music that might come under the banner of New Age that is still interesting or good stuff but we really reached critical mass when the music became accessible because it became based more in Contemporary Jazz and had enough familiar music. Some New Age stuff I think is just too ethereal for these times. I don't see it selling the way it did. It was kind of a phenomenon of the time.

John - Chill seems to have replaced that gap but don't get me wrong do I still love New Age, sure but I would not program it like I did in the eighties.

Frank - Sure. I'm really excited about the Chill music that's on our Rendezvous Lounge album because yeah like you said it satisfies that group that like the slower New Age. A lot of it is structured very different than Smooth Jazz and it takes a little longer to reveal itself very much like New Age music. In my mind it's a little easier to grasp though than New Age.

John - It's huge in Europe too.

Frank - It's also huge in major cities in this country. It's interesting that someone hasn't moved more swiftly in embracing it on radio. That's why we're doing this Chill show with Chris Botti.

John - How did that come to fruition?

Frank - Recognizing how this is selling in Chicago and New York and Miami and San Francisco. Well, if you go into Virgin Records here in Los Angeles and what used to be the Classical section is now called the Lounge section. Well, really we thought a lot of this would sound great on Smooth Jazz radio maybe in the beginning on a specialty show. So someone in the office thought we should do something like the Ramsey Lewis 'Legend of Jazz' show. We should get a major player to host who was a major personality. We contacted Chris and he said he was in, he wanted to do it.

John - If you weren't doing the Rendezvous Records thing after B.A what do you think you'd be doing?

Frank - Oh God, I have no idea! (laughing) This is exactly what I want to be doing.

John - Frank, I'm so glad we finally talked.

Frank - John, I look forward to talking to you again. I really enjoyed this.