John Beaudin - Hi Daryl. It's nice to have you on Smooth Jazz Now.com.

Daryl Stuermer - Thanks John.

John - I loved your 'Another Side of Genesis' album.

Daryl - Great. It is nice to hear that.

John - Well listen, whenever I hear about an album of covers I get a little nervous and I still think beautiful music or muzak versions of hits. It's easy to cross the line and make harmless covers sound like elevator music. The good news is if anyone is qualified to cover Genesis than you're the guy. Were you afraid your stuff might sound like muzak?

Daryl - Well yes, actually I was. In a sense I had a lot of the same fears that anyone would have just like you had and listen I've heard about that before. I've even done records with my keyboard player Kostia where we did the music of Elton John and Billy Joel for a record company and it's always in the back of your mind. This all started with writing songs for my new album 'Waiting in the Wings.' I had written about five songs for that album and I thought maybe I should do a cover song, so I thought whom should I do. I like Sting, James Taylor, Elton John then I thought why not just do one song by Genesis or maybe even a Phil Collins song so that is how it all began. The first song I started with was 'Man on the Corner' and I really liked the direction it took, I thought maybe I would record two or three and pick the best one. So the next song was 'Hold on My Heart' then I tried one more and that was 'Follow You Follow Me' then I realized an actual concept was growing kind of by itself.

John - So 'Waiting in the Wings' had to wait?

Daryl - Yeah, I put that album aside and just decided to do a whole Genesis record. In a sense a tribute to a band that I was with for many years. I thought I'd also concentrate on the years that I was with the band from 1978 to 1992. I wanted to play the music that was done within that era because that what I knew. Of course I played some of the old stuff that Steve Hackett played guitar on. I just thought I'd stick to the more modern stuff and the result was this album. I also had one other problem, I thought I should do the songs totally different than Genesis or should I do them the same and actually the songs kind of did that by themselves. I thought I really can't change some of these songs as far as the form of the songs or the tempo but some I could, like 'Follow You Follow Me' had more of a Samba feel to it but 'Hold On My Heart' pretty much stuck to the same feeling and the same form. Even Tony Banks said to me, "I notice on about half of the songs you really stuck to the way that Genesis did it" and that really is the only way you can. Sometimes I don't care to hear a song by some other artist who takes the song and bastardizes it. I don't like the way some people take these songs and just change them but sure like you were saying you do run the risk of making it sound like elevator music especially when you keep it the same. That's the hardest part. I don't think I did that and the main thing is that you put a lot of feeling into it.

John - Well, mission accomplished.

Daryl - A lot of people will ask me why I didn't do the song like 'Tonight, Tonight, Tonight' but what I stuck to were songs that could translate on the guitar better as a melody. For instance, 'Tonight, Tonight, Tonight is so great of a song that it doesn't translate well when you are trying to play the melodies. It's just not one of those songs that the melody pulls off that well when playing a single line on the guitar you almost need the lyric. So I picked songs that had good and simple strong melodies.

John - Did you try a lot of other Genesis songs?

Daryl - Believe me I did. I tried 'Tonight, Tonight, Tonight' and a few more songs but it just didn't work out so I picked ones that translated to the guitar as a melody instrument. So that was how it all happened.

John - You picked one of my favorites from the self titled Genesis album, 'Taking It All Too Hard'. To me that's always been one of those hidden treasure on a Genesis album.

Daryl - You see I felt the same way and also about 'Never a Time' from the 'We Can't Dance' album. It wasn't a hit in fact we even tried to play it for the 1992 live tour and it somehow didn't work as a live song during rehearsals. We never did play it live we were thinking about it though. They said 'Throwing it All Away' which has a similarity worked better and they were right. So I put it on my record and I changed the ending and put some different chords to it. Like you said, hidden treasures.

John - Your keyboard player Kostia was one of the best on the 'Narada' album. He's not with them anymore, right?

Daryl - No, he isn't. He's from Russia and he came to Milwaukee in about 1989-1990. I ran into him at a party by another keyboard player named Peter Buffet.

John - Who was also on Narada.

Daryl - His father is Warren Buffet, one of the richest men in the world. Peter is a great guy he lives here in Milwaukee. Peter had a party at his house for a lot of industry people and I went to this party and all of a sudden someone said, "I'd love to introduce this keyboard player to you, he's from Russia and he's only been here for two weeks and he has never spoken English since arriving." So I come up to this guy and they say, "Kostia, this is Daryl Stuermer," and the first words out of his mouth were "I like Genesis." (laughing).

John - (laughing) well, he was clear.

Daryl - Sure. He's this big fan of Genesis and he's classically trained. He went to the St. Petersburg classical school and he has the equivalent to a PhD in classical piano and orchestration. What happened was maybe six months to a year from that we started playing together and ever since then that's been it. There's really a nice synergy between us. He comes from a Classical background and I come from a Pop and Jazz background and the mixture is really nice.

John - His "Ten Pebbles" album is one of my favorite piano CDs From the nineties. It's one of those stare at the speaker's album. Bruce Hornsby's debut was like that for me. I remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I first heard 'The Way It Is.' Do you have any songs or albums that hit you that hard?

Daryl - I felt the same way about 'The Way It Is.' I was driving in my car and I was just about two blocks away from my home and it came on the radio. Actually, when I came into my driveway I stopped and listened to the whole song. I thought to myself who is this? I had no idea who it was even when the announcer said the name. I had never heard of the guy. I just love that song and I love the way he plays.

John - I've interviewed him twice and he actually gave me an interview a week before Christmas which was really nice. The biggest thing that I love about Bruce Hornsby is that he still practices for hours a day sometimes perfecting that great independence he has as a player.

Daryl - What is he doing right now? Is he working on a new album?

John - His new album is called 'Big Swing Face' and it contains almost no piano. It should be out June 25th/02. Hornsby sort of made the blues ok for me. You know before I heard Hornsby I really wasn't open to the blues. Well I still don't like the blues but when he does it I can take it.

Daryl - I just love how he approaches all that. He's really one of my favorite people. I've never met him but I love those first records and I sort of miss that style of writing that he did.

John - He gets that a lot.

Daryl - Oh really?

John - I don't think he's interested in staying in the same place and I don't think he can. He's a true musical explorer. Also, he does have usually one or two songs that have the old feel on each album.

Daryl - I understand why he wants to change. I'm just saying that for me those two first albums were the best and I still love them today.

John - That first Hornsby album had those three great songs that stood out, 'The Way It Is, Every Little Kiss and Mandolin Rain' but the second album as a whole worked better as a complete album.

Daryl - I loved that one. What brought me back to that record is when I saw the movie 'Backdraft' and they played one of the songs from that record.

John - Yes, 'The Show Goes On' that's the best song on 'Scenes From the Southside.' Do you have any more albums in your collection that touched you like the two first Bruce Horsnby CD's?

Daryl - A big change for me was in the cross over Jazz, Rock kind of area. The first record that I think about now I discovered when I was eighteen years old. I heard the Mahavishnu record it was called 'Inner Mounting Flame'.

John - That's the album that first got John McLaughlin all the attention.

Daryl - Yeah. It kind of changed my life and how I thought about guitar. It's a combination of a Jazz guitarist playing like Hendrix (laughing). John McLaughlin kind of added that element of rough, real energetic playing like Hendrix but with the finesse of a Jazz guitar player. 'Britches Brew' by Miles Davis was another kind of crossing.

John - Both came out a year or two apart, what was it 1969-70?

Daryl - Yeah. That was when people were starting to actually mix the two a little bit for the first time. You know the problem I have with a lot of Smooth Jazz today isn't necessarily the musicians fault it is that everyone has to water down there music a little bit. I don't want to do that and I'm not. I'm also not playing solo's for ten minutes, I don't think we need to do that. I think when you play on a regular Smooth Jazz station sometimes they'll only want three minutes and thirty seconds worth of music so you take your song and edit it down. I look at that as sort of a trailer, kind of like a movie trailer. It's saying here's the song and if you want more buy the CD and then if you want even more than that then come and see the band live.

John - That's a good way of putting it.

Daryl - Yes. There are all kinds of different ways of looking at it. Getting back to your question, I think at that time people were really stretching a lot more and sort of getting people interested. I just feel that sometimes stations that are just taking what they are told to program, that's not really pushing it at all. People are never going to hear anything different they'll just hear a watered down version.

John - Sure and I think that is on the minds of some of the Smooth Jazz programmers.

Daryl - When you were asking what records had the big impacts? Well, looking at what's out there. What will have an impact on you if no one else is kind of stretching it a bit more. If you are just listening to only those types of stations you are not going to hear anything new and you are not going to listen to anything that's going to blow your mind. (Laughing) I like stations that'll take it a little further than that. Believe it or not I think people are wanting more. I think it's getting to that point where people are going to want a little bit more which will actually make stations play something a little more interesting but maybe I'm just being idealistic.

John - I've been getting some feedback from artists and fans that things will change, maybe the Smooth Jazz format will push the envelope a bit more. I can't see it happening a lot though. As a programmer whenever I've changed things on air it was always so slow and it needed to be slow and besides I would never change a format if it's working.

Daryl - I think we can say that a lot of what we are hearing is homogenized and I think radio knows that too. I think they are doing research on what they think people want. If you're doing a survey and they play you a song for ten seconds and they ask you if you know whom this artist is and if it's a cover, they will put 'yes.' Well to the researchers that's a positive and I think why is that a positive? If you were going to play the Bill Withers song 'Use Me' which I've heard on Smooth Jazz radio for days, I'll just flip on a station and it's on. It's not that I hate this song I just hate that this is what they're playing. I think it's a good song but this is not what I turned on the station for. I turned on the station to hear something new not just an old cover or the original. I really do love Steely Dan but I don't necessarily want to hear an old Steely Dan song. I do love some of the songs on Smooth Jazz radio, I just want to hear something new and if they do a cover I want to hear them do it in an interesting way.

John - Overall, radio tuning is going down. The last time I looked it was happening in the U.S. more than in Canada. I think research groups have to start talking to the people who aren't listening anymore and finding out why instead of going after this same small piece of the pie. Everyone is to busy stealing listeners from the other stations.

Daryl - That's a good point. You know I hardly listen to radio anymore. Basically, I flip it on and if I'm hearing the same old thing I'll flip it again or I'll go the NPR(National Public Radio) or I'll go to talk radio.

John - I don't do it as much anymore but I used to take these long road trips by myself and the two main things I listened to were new CD's that were out of my frame of reference or comfort zone and NPR which also took me out of the box. I love NPR. Of course I would always hear songs that appealed to me personally but if I had my programmer's hat on would never ever play on commercial radio. That's the nature of the beast. When I program I certainly don't think of guys like me, I'm not the norm.

Daryl - You and I aren't the general public. What the consultants are taking is what is generally there. It's not that they are wrong I guess I just need as an artist and maybe you do too a little more than that. I think you have to push a culture a little bit. I think you have to be willing to take a little bit of a risk. I'm not trying to educate people but I think people naturally become more educated when you do that.

John - I see what you mean but I think some programmers are afraid of taking a chance and I agree to a certain degree. Say you take a chance and tweak a format that's already working in one ratings period you can loose a few share points and then there goes the format. I think it will evolve but it's got to be a slow process. With that in mind, if someone threw a whole bunch of money to you to do a radio show what would you play?

Daryl - I would probably play what I have in my CD collection. (Laughing) I'd probably get pretty conscience of a format.

John - What if you didn't have to worry about a format what would be on that show?

Daryl - Then I guess I would stick to stuff that I love listening to. You mentioned Bruce Hornsby, well I'd play lots from him. I'd play some James Taylor but I'd also play Dave Grusin and Lee Ritenour. I wouldn't run this full gammet and say here's some Classical and then follow that up with Country. So, I guess I'd stick to a certain area of music that I like listening to when I'm not playing my own stuff. I'd play an awful lot of Daryl Stuermer though. (Laughing)

John - I've heard he's a poser! (Laughing)

Daryl - (laughing) Yeah, I've heard that too.

John - My drumming teacher Dave Ditomaso leant me a copy of the Buddy Rich tribute vhs with Phil (Collins) and Steve Smith (former Journey drummer) and you know I could literally feel my mind expand watching these great musicians do their stuff.

Daryl - Steve Smith and I played together in Jean Luc Ponty's band.

John - Yeah.

Daryl - We did an album called 'Enigmatic Ocean.' Steve Smith and I worked together for years.

John - Well, you have a reputation of playing with some damn great drummers.

Daryl - Yeah and there's Chester Thompson (Genesis) I've been really happy with drummers.

John - What's Chester doing now?

Daryl - Actually I just played with him on a charity event in Switzerland, Phil Collins lives in Geneva and we did this charity event in January. Chester lives in Nashville and he also works as a music instructor and he'll be back in the Phil Collins band soon. Were talking about doing something in 2003 and Chester will be part of that with Bassist Leland Skylar or Nathan East. I'm looking forward to that, I've always loved Chester's drumming. Phil always has excellent musicians. I'm the only original member of his band. We started back in 1980-81 when we did 'Face Value' with 'In the Air Tonight'.

John - That was a very prolific time for all of the members of Genesis. Duke of course came out, Mike Rutherford released a wonderful album called 'Smallcreeps Day' and it's still one of my all time favorite CD's. Tony (Banks) had 'A Curious Feeling' and Phil's debut.

Daryl - Yes, it was a busy time. Phil was the most successful but later Mike did pretty well with Mike and the Mechanics.

John - You know that first Mike and the Mechanics album had some great Smooth Jazz compatible vocals.

Daryl - Did you ever play 'Taken In?'

John - That's the one I played the most. Paul Young sang that one right?

Daryl - Yes and it had that nice soprano sax. I also love Paul Carrack, I just love his voice. It was a great thing for them to have two strong lead vocalists.

John - You know what drove me nuts when Paul Young died. I heard this announcer at our local CHR/hot AC station here in Vancouver say, "The guy who sang Every time you go away, Paul Young is dead." I just cringed because that's the other Paul Young. It's a simple and yet big mistake at the same time.

Daryl - Isn't that something? That's too bad a lot of people did think it was the younger Paul Young who died.

John - No, that was just his career that was dead and not himself. I was listening to the Mike and the Mechanics, Paul Young way back when he was with Sad Café. You have a Smooth Jazz station in Milwaukee right?

Daryl - Yes it's called JZI and they have a new program director and I think he's trying to push the envelope just a little bit which is good. I actually like the guy. He used to have a Jazz station here in Milwaukee in the 1980's called Breezin and they used to play some pretty great stuff.

John - You know the first time I ever heard anything solo from you was that first GRP Christmas sampler. You did such a greatcatchy version of 'Little Drummer Boy' and I've played it every year since. I never got your first album 'Stepping Out.'

Daryl - 'Stepping Out' came out a year before the Christmas sampler. I really enjoyed doing that Christmas song though.

John - Well, that's one of the better Smooth Jazz Christmas albums.

Daryl - I still put it on every Christmas. I guess I could say it's on rotation. (Laughing) We put on about five different Christmas albums and that's always in there. I just love Dave Grusin too he's such a wonderful piano player.

John - I love his soundtrack stuff especially 'On Golden Pond.'

Daryl - Yeah, it's beautiful. The engineer I use, Don Murray, he does all of Dave's stuff and Don's done all of my records too.

John - What did 'Stepping Out' sound like?

Daryl - It was a record that GRP took on and they thought maybe we'll stretch this a little because it was a little more heavier Pop instrumental. It wasn't really a Smooth Jazz record it was a little bit edgy for them and so it didn't sell as well and they couldn't get airplay with it and I understand that. We must have about twenty five of them around here, I'll send you one.

John - Great, I'd love to hear it.

Daryl - I think there was some good stuff on that. Every once in awhile when I do a CD signing after the show someone will come up with the album not even the CD, the actual album. It was released just around the time CDs were coming out. The feedback from the fans on that album has been really great. People will say they are so happy with it and that they've had it for years. I'd love to be able to sell that CD again but I'd have to buy it back from GRP and there's no way I'm going to do that.

John - Yeah, it's not usually a good financial decision. It would probably cost too much to buy back. Labels have a tendency to keep the old stuff in the vaults thinking maybe someday we can make some cash on this.

Daryl - I know. It's just sitting there and it's not in print anymore and I'd love to buy whatever they have. I know realistically I'm not going to since it's too expensive. I didn't make any money off that record anyway. (Laughing) I'm surely not going to buy it.

John - (laughing)I appreciate your honesty.

Daryl - 'Another Side of Genesis' is the first record that I feel that I'll actually not loose money on.

John - I like the idea of 'Waiting in the Wings' being limited edition, marketing wise.

Daryl - Right now there are a couple of companies interested in it. One of the companies is interested in half of that record, meaning they like five songs on it and they would like me to write some more songs and put that together as a record. If that ever happens the current edition of 'Waiting in the Wings' would be a very limited edition, sort of a collector's record.

John - They must want the more melodic stuff.

Daryl - Yeah, we would take out the heavier songs and put on maybe the first four or five songs. I think the record company thinks right now it conceptually sounds like two records with two styles. It doesn't sound like that to me but I am a musician and I'm just very open to the whole thing but as a concept I understand what they're talking about.

John - I love the little intro right at the beginning of the album and what follows is pretty damn great also.

Daryl - Thank you I appreciate that. I feel that way about it too but I always like the last record I did or sometimes you like the last song you wrote. This record I feel is strong and I've gotten great reports from people writing in. I'm glad that they got it because that's what you want you want people to understand what you were going for. You mentioned the intro, it's seems everybody loves that intro even this record company said, "Yes, we like that."I love when a record company likes what I like and I believe the songs that this record company picked are the strongest songs.

John - How did Genesis hear about you back in 1978?

Daryl - Well, a bass player friend of mine actually auditioned for them. What they wanted was someone who could replace Steve Hackett, they wanted a guitarist who could also play bass. Well this guy was a great bass player but he wasn't a guitarist really and so when they told him that he recommended me. Mike Rutherford had already heard me on a record by Jean Luc Ponty. They apparently auditioned thirty guitar players and they couldn't find anybody. They basically knew they'd find somebody from the United States because there's a lot more people here there's a lot more musicians and a lot more competition in a sense. A lot of musicians on this side of the ocean are a lot more adaptable to different situations just because of the nature of the way they were raised, playing in cover bands. In England there's less to choose from, there's just a lot less musicians. Look at Genesis, all those guys basically grew up in one band from the time they were seventeen years old and that's the only band they played in. Guys like myself have played in many different bands so were use to adapting to different situations. Anyway, they got a list at that point of about five different guitar players and they flew me from where I live in Milwaukee to New York. I remember I was the first guy to audition that day and I didn't really know what to expect.

John - Were you nervous?

Daryl - Yeah a little. I had known Chester Thompson and he was in the band and I thought that's a good thing. They had sent me a tape of four songs, two old ones and two new ones that were from 'And Then There Were Three.'

John - What were the songs?

Daryl - They sent 'Squonk', 'Dance on a Volcano', 'Down and Out' and 'Follow You Follow Me'. So I went and auditioned and sat down with Mike (Rutherford). I played about one minute of one song and a minute of another and he just had a tape, a monitor and he had his guitar and I had mine and by the third song he said "I think that's enough, I think you're the one." Mike and I got along very well personally right away. There's something that happened right away. Then he found out that I could play guitar and I knew the songs because when they sent me the tape I had learned those songs already. I remember arriving at ten in the morning and by eleven o'clock he said, "I have someone else coming in to audition so why don't I ring you at the Plaza Hotel at around five o'clock? I'll give you a list of the songs because we have to start rehearsing in three weeks." (Laughing).

John - Pressure!

Daryl - Pressure is right! After he came that day I said, "I'm kind of curious Mike, I recognize a couple of the names of the other guitar players, why did they not get the gig?" and he said, "None of them knew the songs." (Laughing)

John - (laughing) what?

Daryl - None of the other guitarists had learned the songs. I assumed they got the tape and that surprises me because half of the reason you get a job as a musician is because you come prepared and I was very well prepared for this. I knew these songs backwards and forward. I can play the guitar and all I had to do was learn these songs and there was not much more that I had to do and maybe if the guy likes me, maybe I'll get the job.

John - That's amazing to me. How could they not know the songs?

Daryl - You know that happens a lot and I've noticed that through the years a lot of people come unprepared. I did an audition for Gino Vanelli for a tour in 1979. I was already in Genesis but I had 1979 off because Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford's wives were having babies and they were taking the whole year off. When I auditioned for Gino Vanelli I learned his whole "Brother To Brother" album and when I went down there I knew what I was doing.

John - That's a great album, that's his big one.

Daryl - Yeah, that was the big album and I did the big tour. (Laughing) That was the last big tour he ever had. Here was an album that went platinum, it was a great record but what happened is we went out (on tour) too late and we were playing five thousand seat arenas instead of playing ten thousand seaters. The music was great, the band was great, and the drummer I had already worked with in Jean Luc Ponty's band before Steve Smith joined and that was Mark Craney. It was a great band and a fun tour, we toured for about three months. Gino Vanelli was at a certain level, he was very well known and he had sort of a cult following before 'Brother to Brother' but that one really brought him into the Pop world.

John - You see Gino was big here in Canada long before 'Brother to Brother.' One of my business partners in the eighties interviewed Gino and he answered a lot of the questions with a yes or no answer. Maybe he was having a bad day, maybe he was tired or maybe he is just very private. I think it was the latter. Am I off base?

Daryl - Gino is an entertainer when he gets out there but he's a very shy guy off of the stage. He's kind of a quiet, shy person or maybe he just doesn't interview well.

John - Getting back to Genesis. After Mike Rutherford hired you what happened.

Daryl - I went over there (England) in three weeks and we did six weeks rehearsal. I had to learn this stuff real quick for the 'And Then There Were Three tour.' He gave me a list of about twenty- five songs. I came very prepared for the rehearsal and I remember the first day we didn't play one song and the second day we played maybe one.

John - Well, what did you do all day?

Daryl - The first day of rehearsal with Genesis is usually about getting all the gear and equipment together. Everybody is getting their sound up and then you're taking tea breaks. (Laughing)

John - That must have been a new thing?

Daryl - Yeah, it was new to me. I thought when I get there they are going to go through everything and I came so prepared I could of done that show the very first day but these guys are just slowly walking around. I didn't know how it went, I was never in a band of that stature and size.

John - The band was also taking off at that time. They had their first hit with 'Follow Me Follow Me' sure it was a big step for you but it also was for them.

Daryl - The thing was that with Genesis the record sales didn't translate as well, they didn't even have a gold album at this point. 'And Then There Were Three' was their first gold album but they were still playing ten to twenty seat halls and they were only selling two hundred to two hundred and fifty thousand albums. They were known as a live act. I remember my first show with them, it was in Pennsylvania and I just couldn't believe walking out there and there's fifteen thousand people and I was used to playing at the most maybe three thousand with Jean Luc Ponty. It is an audience that immediately they are with you.

John - And they know the songs.

Daryl - They know all the songs. You walk out there and you can't even hear yourself they're all going nuts. Where the drummer has to count out the song, he's yelling one, two. Anyway, it was quite a trip. It was a great moment, I'll never forget it.

John - Is that the big moment, the career highlight for you.

Daryl - That would be it because that's when I realized this is the big time. I loved working with Jean Luc Ponty though, that was the first big time because I went from a local band to this internationally known Jazz violinist and I had such a great time doing it. When it went from that to Genesis that was the big step.

John - That's a pretty big step.

Daryl - That was and before it happened I thought to myself am I going to be musically as interested in this? In fact Jean luc Ponty turned me on to Genesis. He was telling me how much of a good band this was. I ended up a lot more excited musically with Genesis and I was more impressed by it than I ever thought I would be. With Genesis it's all about the whole group as a sound with the arrangements and stuff like that and I really got involved. You know when I first heard the records I wasn't sure what were guitar parts and what were the keyboard parts because they sounded very similar.

John - That's very true especially when Steve Hackett was in the band.

Daryl - Yeah, some of the stuff Steve played had a very Synth sounding guitar part. So I found that I had a lot more to do than expected. I have to say that was the most fun group I ever played with and those people Mike, Tony and Phil are the nicest people to work with. I've heard horror stories about musicians who were big time and were big jerks but this was never the case with Genesis. The management was great I never got screwed, these were like real people and I was really surprised.

John - I saw Mike Rutherford the last time you guys were in Vancouver, he was walking through a mall downtown and some kid recognized him and I was surprised that Mike gave the kid the time of day, he was really nice.

Daryl - Believe it. That's the way he is and that's the way all the guys were. I wish they'd do another tour. I wish they'd do some final reunion tour.

John - How did you feel about 'Calling All Stations' the post Phil Collins version of Genesis featuring Ray Wilson as lead vocalist? I remember hearing a quote from you where you mentioned that it just wasn't Genesis without Phil Collins.

Daryl - I still feel that way about it. I think 'Calling All Stations' sounded more like one of their solo projects. Well, it wasn't Mike, Tony and Phil. A lot of the time they would use a different singer on their albums.

John - Like Noel McCalla on Mike's 'Smallcreeps Day' album and Kim Beacon on 'A Curious Feeling' Tony's first album. I loved Noel McCalla and when Phil left I was kind of hoping that Mike would call Noel for the job.

Daryl - It's not that I didn't like Ray Wilson. He just had a different personality and sound so to me it doesn't sound like Genesis even though it kind of sounds similar to a couple of guys from Genesis doing the music. It also doesn't have Phil's drumming on it, it's just a different animal. It's still a good band, it was a good album but it wasn't the same and it'll never be the same unless you have Mike, Tony and Phil or Mike, Tony, Phil and Peter who knows.

John - That would be better than heaven for most Genesis fans. When was the first time that Peter Gabriel rejoined the band for a few shows in England after he left?

Daryl - I remember we did do Knebworth where Peter did the whole show with us and Phil played drums and that was so much fun. We did old Genesis songs that I had never played so I had to learn all this old stuff.

John - There we go again, back to Genesis school.

Daryl - (laughing) Yeah, but it was so much fun. You know what's funny at this particular show it rained and there were probably fifty thousand people there and it was a big charity event and the group Toto was in the audience and they came back stage, (laughing) Steve Lukather and some of the guys.

John - I liked his stuff with Larry Carlton. He's such a great guitarist and vocalist.

Daryl - Toto was a great band for me.

John - Is there any chance that Genesis will get back together?

Daryl - I can honestly say of course there's a possibility but have I heard about anything? No, I have not heard of any talk of any tour but I don't know why it wouldn't be possible.

John - I have this picture of Phil as being a discerning kind of guy who is careful about what he does with his time. With a new solo album coming out would he even have time plus logistically wouldn't it be near impossible to get all their schedules to work?

Daryl - I believe that the only way that Phil would do a Genesis tour again is if he could only play drums. I think he wants to just play drums.

John - Not being the lead singer?

Daryl - I think he would rather have Peter sing and he play drums. I think he's done singing with them not that he wouldn't sing a song but I've heard him say, "Well I'll play the drums." (Laughing) So, the thing is you have to get Phil and you have to get Peter to do this and I think Mike and Tony would do it.

John - Last month I talked with Tony Levin about the new Gabriel album and he reminded me that nothings ever for sure with a Peter Gabriel album. He sometimes scraps whole albums and start from scratch! I can understand that from a writer's point of view but throwing away a thousand word article is one thing but throwing away a whole album is a whole new can of beans.

Daryl - I know because he's had a new album on the way for years. You never know when it's going to be done. I sat at a meal next to him in 1998 and I asked Peter when we were going to hear an album and he said, "well were in the mixing stage now" (laughing) and now it's 2002. Peter is eccentric but he's sure a nice person and he's a very quite guy offstage, very unassuming. He'll talk to his fans, he'll sit there and sign autographs until it's all over and it doesn't matter how many people are there. That's why it was so great working with that group, they're all cut from the same clothe.

John - Well, you stayed with them for a long time and you look back with great feelings.

Daryl - I do and it's not hard to say it. I could basically trash them if I wanted to but there's nothing to trash. If they wanted to do something I'd do it in a flash, whether it's a solo album from Tony or Mike because they've been so generous to me and they've been my friends for years. We're the type of people that don't call each other that often while were off. I don't need to hear from Mike or Tony to hear that they still like me. (Laughing)

John - Interestingly, Tony Levin said the same thing about Peter Gabriel.

Daryl - When I'm not working with Phil I hardly ever talk to him. We did this event in January in Geneva and Mike Rutherford was there with his wife and he came on stage and did 'We Can't Dance' with us. When I see Mike and I see Mike and Tony the least, it's like we never left.

John - When Phil left some of the press thought that there must of been a fight.

Daryl - There wasn't. It's the same with Peter there are no bad feelings anywhere. I'm sure Mike and Tony didn't want Phil to leave.

John - I get the feeling that they understood though.

Daryl - They understood, yeah, they understand him.

John - So, Genesis is officially not a band anymore, right?

Daryl - I don't know what that means, officially. Genesis will always be there in spirit somehow. There's no talk about working as a group.

John - And the Ray Wilson thing is over?

Daryl - I think so. Well it wasn't a very successful album and they did not tour in the States. It was like the Rolling Stones without Mick Jagger.

John - The promoters were not behind it I know that. Congratulations on winning four WAMI(Wisconsin Area Music Awards) awards.

Daryl - Well thanks.

John - It's pretty cool, CD of the Year "Another Side of Genesis," Artist of the Year, Contemporary Jazz Artist and Best Guitarist. Hey, that looks pretty good in print. (Laughing).

Daryl - (laughing) It was great. I was quite surprised after I received the first award I thought that would probably be it. So you thank everybody the first time and then you have to go up and thank some more people. (Laughing)

John - Hey, you could of done a Halle Berry and said, "it's one small step."

Daryl - Yeah, for German American. (laughing) We have the WAMI's coming up this month and we're having a reunion of a band that I was in twenty years ago. It's called Sweet Bottom, it was probably the most popular group in Milwaukee in 1974-75. When I left for Jean Luc Ponty in 1975 I would still come back in town and still play with that band until about 1980. So we're doing this reunion and were going to be doing some gigs this summer.

John - What did the band sound like?

Daryl - It was a Jazz fusion group. We did a lot of original music, I'd say half originals and half covers. Stuff like David Sanborn and Chick Corea and we're opening up the WAMI show. Around this city actually it's a big deal even around Wisconsin people know this band. I kept hearing are you ever going to do that Sweet Bottom thing again almost like Genesis just on a smaller scale.

John - Have you recorded with them.

Daryl - When I left the band in 1975 they did their first album. They ended up doing two albums for Asylum. They weren't big successful albums or anything. They turned a little more Pop at that point. We were a band that played five nights a week in a Jazz club, in fact that is how I got involved with Jean Luc Ponty. When popular groups would come into town they'd ask "where do we go to hear good music." Well Frank Zappa's 'Mother of Invention' were in town and they came down to the club and George Duke was on keyboards and Chester Thompson was on drums and they came to see us and they all sat in. I was about twenty one years old and I was a big fan of George Duke already and it was Duke that gave my name to Jean Luc Ponty.

John - Man, that's good company.

Daryl - Yeah, It was great.

John - Will Sweet Bottom ever record again and will you be involved?

Daryl - I don't know. Were going to see how this goes. It's going to be a lot of fun. The fans are going to love it and we're doing all these summer festivals and it sort of depends on how it works. We had our actual first rehearsal this past Sunday night and it was so much fun. My brother is the bass player.

John - Oh, is that right?

Daryl - I have a brother who's two years older than me and he plays bass and he does that for a living.

John - Was he in Sweet Bottom when you left back in 1975?

Daryl - Yes, he was with them for years. He's kind of a freelance musician. He's actually quite a successful bass player around here.

John - Do you ever teach?

Daryl - I don't. I did when I was younger. I was a guitar teacher believe it or not at sixteen years old. (laughing) I quit when I joined Jean Luc Ponty's band, teaching all that time while I was playing five nights a week.

John - There was this skit with Chris Farley on Saturday Night Live years ago when he interviewed Paul McCartney and would go "Do you remember when you were with the Beatles? That was really cool."

Daryl - (laughing) I love that skit!

John - If you taught now I can imagine you'd get a lot of that. (laughing) Daryl, remember when you were on stage in 82 with Genesis and Phil Collins looked over at you and smiled that was really cool.

Daryl - (laughing) I would and I do get that a lot especially here. You know Chris Farley is from Wisconsin.

John - Oh really?

Daryl - Yeah, he was from Madison, Wisconsin. He knew that whole accent and that way of thinking. I know some people who knew him. He was just looking at the culture and he's known people like that.

John - We've all known people like that. Tony Levin and I were laughing about that. For him, it's about John Lennon and Peter Gabriel. As a journalist I try to be careful with that but one gets a feel for each person we interview and with Tony and of course with you speaking about Genesis seems okay.

Daryl - You know a guy will come up to me and ask me if I play with Phil Collins then he will ask me if he looks like Phil! (laughing) The guy is bald and he says he gets a lot of people saying he looks like Phil (laughing) and of course he doesn't!

John - That's odd to me but I understand it when I got these heavier framed glasses I had about twenty people telling me I looked like Robert Downey Jr. just because we had the same glasses! (laughing) Sure, tell me I look like the guy once he's whacked out on drugs instead of when he was younger and looked like a million bucks. No one got us mixed up then I tell ya! (laughing)

Daryl - (laughing) So you know what I mean!

John - Rik Emmett who was with Triumph for so many years gets the reunion thing a lot and he said, "They have a great deal emotionally invested in trying to keep their own history, their own myth."

Daryl - It does bring them back to a better time and that is what I think it comes down to. Many people have asked many times if Sweet Bottom is getting back together. I never had an answer but now I do and they say, "Oh great it's going to be awesome" and I'm thinking it's not going to be that great. (laughing) We're just going to play but maybe it'll be really great to them and for them it's going to be about reliving some of the past. Part of my problem with reunions is I don't know if I want to relive some of the past. I think sometimes leaving it like it was is great and let's leave it as you felt at that time, maybe we can't recapture it again. Sometimes, Genesis I know feels that way maybe we should just let it rest.

John - Yeah, it was a great thing then.

Daryl - Yeah, it was great. Personally I think Genesis could capture it again but you also don't want to look like a bunch of old guys out there trying to be young. Sometimes when I see reunion bands play I think wow they sure look old and I don't know if I like that.

John - Doesn't happen in Smooth Jazz.

Daryl - I tell you that's one of the things that I like about the Smooth Jazz world it doesn't matter what age you are. No one cares if you have this Pop looking image. You can be twenty-five or sixty-five and you'll get the same respect from the audience who likes that kind of music. They just don't care, in fact they'd rather you be more of their age. I know the demographics are what?

John - 25-54 sometime 35-54

Daryl - 25-54 there you go and I'm in there. Sometimes you look up there and you want to see people that look like you. You like to know that they are experienced musicians and these guys are cool and their not up there for the pop imagery. If you're brought up in that pop world your going to have that problem when you get older. If your doing this instrumental music like I'm doing it doesn't have that face to it. All you have to be is good, sure it helps if you're a good looking guy or women that always helps but it's not just about that. Is it good stuff and do you put on a good show.

John - One thing that everyone agrees with is it's hard to find an over the top jerk in this Smooth Jazz genre.

Daryl - I don't think it breeds that. I guess I'm glad I'm in the club even though in some ways I feel I'm new to it. You know when I was off the road from Genesis or Jean Luc Ponty I always played the type of music that's on 'Waiting in the Wings.' There's a song on their called Pyramid and Copenhagen. Pyramid was written in 1974 and the other was written in 1979 and the first songs on there are songs that I used to do with my band Sweet Bottom, 'Trans Atlantic' and 'Road Warrior' that was done with Sweet Bottom. It's funny though I do sometimes feel like I'm new to it but I'm not.

John - Well, your certainly not jumping on the bandwagon.

Daryl - Yeah, I've been doing this all along but as far as some people's minds are concerned I might be new to it but really I've been doing this all along. I don't know if it's completely Smooth Jazz, it's instrumental and some of it crosses over to the Smooth Jazz world. I feel like I've become better as a musician and this is a comfortable place for me to be. I'm probably even more comfortable doing this type f music because in a way I've never stopped. I know now I'll have more time to actually do it. Phil will do less actual touring and that's fine I've done well with that and now I want to go off and do this. I love the fact that it never gets old because as you said the demographic is 25-54 and they want to see someone up there that's the same age and it doesn't have to have big lights and screens. I have nothing against that stuff, god who wouldn't love to have that.

John - But it's not necessary.

Daryl - No, it's not. The type of venues I'd love to play more of are in theatres. I think that's a good intimate setting. I don't think you can play arenas with this type of music, I don't think it translates well to the big room. Not that I could (laughing) but if I play in a theatre I'm happy there. That's the good intimate audience you can play some acoustic stuff and the electric stuff and Kostia and I during a show will do one or two acoustic numbers and it's just guitar and piano. When we do the Genesis song 'Since I Lost you' or the intro to 'Waiting in the Wings' we'll do that acoustically. We did the Catalina Jazz festival for the last two years and I just love the audience. It's such a great festival it's about fifteen hundred people that just love this kind of music, Jazz, Smooth Jazz or whatever you want to call it. When you play something quiet and intimate they listen and when you play it loud they're very enthusiastic.

John - They are a mature crowd. Mature in the way that it doesn't matter what their age is, they have a knowledge of the music and are willing to go out of the box and I think that makes them mature musically.

Daryl - Oh yeah, exactly and what amazes me is this is a Smooth Jazz crowd basically but when you rock up there they go crazy. Our encore is Genesis' 'Turn It On Again' and it rocks and they went nuts and here was that 30-50 audience and they loved it. They love our live version of 'Follow You Follow Me' and 'Land of Confusion' is another rocker that they go nuts for.

John - You do what a lot of Smooth Jazz do and that's you're touring schedule is sporadic.

Daryl - Well I'd like to do more so I'm going to get an agency that books more than a couple of weeks here and there. You're right I'm all over the board right now.

John - What's your favorite album of all time?

Daryl - Oh my God (laughing) that's hard. Well I love the 'Aja' album by Steely Dan. I just love that record.

John - That album never sounds dated to me.

Daryl - I know. I put it on as recent as a month ago. I just wanted to see how it sounded and I thought it still sounds good, so current. You know how it is there are old records that you love and you put them on and they sound pretty crappy. This records still sounds great to me so I'd say that is probably one of my favorite albums of all time.

John - And if I would of asked the same question when you were sixteen?

Daryl - I think around the time I was sixteen I bought this 'Blood Sweat and Tears' album. The one with 'Spinning Wheel' and 'You Make Me so very Happy' and the album 'A Child is a Father to the Man.' Al Cooper put the record together he had Randy Brecker on Trumpet and then he left and David Clayton Thomas became the singer.

John - A good Canadian boy. What was the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to you on stage?

Daryl - It's a good question. Well it didn't just happen to me Mike Rutherford was also included. I think we were playing Cleveland during the 'I Can't Dance' tour. We used to do the I Can't Dance walk while we're playing. Phil would walk in the front and Mike and I use to follow Phil. Phil used to go down these stairs that go in front of the p.a. because we have wireless instruments and we can walk anywhere. Once in a while Phil would just run ahead and we'd have to run after him and it's kind of a silly, funny thing to watch. Well he decided to run up the stairs and we followed suite but Mike tripped (laughing) and his foot went into a hole and I fell on top of him. And we made it look like we meant to do this. Mike cut his lip can you imagine the sound of the guitar going wannnngggg. Maybe it's more embarrassing for him. (laughing)

John - What's you favorite movie of all time?

Daryl - To Kill a Mockingbird. I love that movie.

John - Tell me who out there would you really like to play with.

Daryl - I would love to play with James Taylor and Sting but Sting's got an excellent guitar player named Dominique Miller and I really like him. I watch James Taylor's group and I think I want to do this too because it looks relaxed and free and I just love his music.

John - I saw James Taylor the last time he was here in Vancouver in 1992. He had Don Grolnick on piano, I used to play Don's Windham Hill CDs in Edmonton. I felt so incredibly grounded when I left that concert.

Daryl - I've seen him many times. I am good friends with Leland Skylar which was his bass player so I've seen him with Leland and with Jimmy Johnson who's his bass player now. I've seen him with Carlos Vega who's not around anymore and of course Don Grolnick's not around.

John - I know about Carlos Vega but Don Grolnick's dead?

Daryl - Yeah, he died. He died of cancer about two years ago.

John - Pardon my ignorance, I had no idea. I really loved his stuff.

Daryl - Carlos was a close friend of Louis Conte's who plays with me. When we're doing this Sweet Bottom WAMI show we're doing a Don Grolnick song that David Sanborn made popular.

John - Who was your guitar hero when you were teaching at sixteen?

Daryl - Jimi Hendrix was big with me so was Larry Coryell and Wes Montgomery. When you think about it, Hendrix and Wes Montgomery were on different ends of the spectrum but for Jazz guitar Wes Montgomery is my favorite to this day. Jimi Hendrix had that edge and that is probably why I like John McLaughlin because he had Wes Montgomery and Jim Hendrix combined (laughing) in the Mahavishnu era. I hope you don't mind I had about three answers to your question.

John - Anybody out there now that blows you away?

Daryl - Oh yeah, when I think about someone who blows me away I mean someone who I can relate to it would be Eric Johnson.

John - Do you buy a lot of guitar albums?

Daryl - You mentioned a while ago what would I play if I had my own radio show well I'd play a lot of Eric Johnson. I think he's fantastic. Here's the thing about guitar players records what I don't like is it's all about a guitar riff. Here's this whole song based on this riff and they are just wailing away and I'm not going to mention names. When I buy their guitar record they're usually an excellent player but I don't think they're very good songs. What I like about my own music is it's not all about the guitar playing, it's about a mood and an arrangement of a song. My guitar playing just happens to be the lead voice and the solo on that song. I not trying to impress anybody.

John - Tony Levin said a very similar thing.

Daryl - Yeah, our instruments just happen to be the vehicle for the melody and the solo but I really think the song is more important.

John - I agree with that.

Daryl - I'll take a guy like Eric Johnson because he also writes a pretty good song and his guitar playing is just great over top of that. He's a little bit on the guitar side but he's got such a great sound and he cares so much about the melody. I also love Pat Metheny, I love the mood that he captures. I haven't heard any of his newest stuff but all the stuff that I have had over the years is great. When he puts out a song it has a beautiful arrangement with great sound, it's not just a Jazz tune it has so much thought in the arranging. The texture of the song, the arrangement, the form. Most of the time you don't hear Lyle Mays play a piano solo over the same changes, the same chords in other words that he did. It's in a different section of the song with a different mood. I think there's a lot of care taken in that kind of arranging in Pat Matheny's music.

John - The last time I saw him in concert I was blown away by the expanse of the sound, it was huge, thick without being too loud.

Daryl - Every time I've seen Metheny I've not been disappointed. He creates a mood, a feeling and texture in the sound. I don't get that from a lot of Jazz. There's a lot of wonderful Jazz players out there but I don't get a sense that they care as much about the arrangement or maybe it's just a different concept. When you see Metheny you're seeing a good Jazz quintet or whatever but you're also hearing someone who says I want to take it a lot further. It's almost orchestrated like an actual orchestra and I love that. I love when someone takes that much care in what they are doing. I think Metheny is probably the best at that in the Jazz world. I think Eric Johnson is the best at that in the Rock Jazz Fusion world. I'm somewhere in the middle of that. I'm not as Jazzy as Metheny and not as Rock as Eric Johnson. I do relate to both very much and I hope I have a little of that on my records.

John - Metheny is like Hornsby to me no matter how out there they get I usually recognize them. This past December when I talked to Bruce Horsnby I told him that and I wasn't sure how he was going to take that but he said it was a compliment. I like that sense of recognition in a musician.

Daryl - Me too. I like both those guys the same way. It's about their personality. They have a signature basically.

John - You see I hear that in your music also. I like that about everything I've heard from you. Is that a conscious thing for you?

Daryl - People say that they can tell when it is myself playing. If they know me well enough they can tell that it's my guitar solo. I don't work at it like I'm going to be an original. You just become one. It comes from years of trying to imitate someone else but then you can't help yourself you're going to sound like you no matter what. (laughing)

John - (laughing) Damn, I still sound like me!

Daryl - (laughing) Oh no, with all the influences I have like Hendrix and Wes Montgomery I'm going like somewhere in between you know? (laughing)

John - I wanted to mention this before but concerning Wes Montgomery I always thought his music had a similar feel to James Taylor. I know that might sound a little far out for some people but if you listen to Montgomery's greatest hits when he was doing the Beatles stuff it has a very friendly feel good stuff. Perhaps middle of the road for some diehards maybe but I love the way I feel when I listen to both.

Daryl - Yeah. It's sort of like Phil with his Pop influence. Phil Loves James Taylor. He just thinks he's a wonderful songwriter. I love Randy Newman as a songwriter.

John - I remember the quote from you. You told Sarah Mclachlan that if Phil didn't win the Oscar for Tarzan you wanted her to win for that Toy Story 2 song 'When She Loved Me' by Randy Newman.

Daryl - Yeah, that was me.

John - Sarah just had her first baby (India Ann Sushil Sood) here in Vancouver this past Saturday.

Daryl - That's great. I think the song that Sarah and Randy Newman did together was so good. It was great in the film. Here you're watching an animated film and this song makes you cry.

John - My daughter has watched it maybe a million times and it always makes me weepy.

Daryl - It's wonderful. For me personally of course I wanted Phil to win. I was doing the Oscar with him with Brad Cole on Piano. So here I am hoping that Phil wins and I'm looking over there at Sarah McLachlan who is such a wonderful singer and this song is so great and I love Randy Newman so I told her, "Sarah, if we don't win I want you to win." (laughing) "You deserve it." I thought they were the two best songs anyway but of course I wanted my guy to win. I would of rather not be in competition. Randy Newman finally won this year but with a song that was nowhere near as great as that song. I think he won for a body of work. He won for being up there fifteen times. Did you see the Oscars when we won?

John - I did.

Daryl - Phil was standing there next to Randy Newman and he just gave Randy the biggest hug. I'll tell you another thing that Phil said that's really funny. We were standing on the side listening to Sarah McLachlan and Randy Newman playing their song and Phil looks at me and says, "Someday when I grow up I'll be able to play adult chords like that." (laughing)

John - (laughing) What a sport.

Daryl - He just loves Randy Newman. Some of his film score are so incredible and a lot of people don't know that he just didn't write short people. (laughing) He's written some great scores for films like The Natural, Avalon and he's written great songs. It was a pleasure at the Oscars though to talk with Sarah McLaughlin. I had told her "I'm a fan of yours but I have a daughter who's a huge fan and I'd just love to get a picture signed." Well somehow they left before the Oscars were over and we never connected. She ended up sending a signed photo to my daughter Kelly and she sent my wife Michaela and I her cookbook (A Collection of Sarah Mclachlan's Favorite Recipes) with it signed. She was very gracious and very nice.

John - She also keeps her private life very private. The paper just had a little story on the birth of her daughter. Trust me this is not going to be a Celine Dion 'get to know my ovaries' story.

Daryl - (laughing) Yeah, we heard a lot of information. You know it's interesting I was talking to Sarah's husband the drummer Ashwin at the Oscars. He said, "I just want to tell you I'm a big fan of Genesis, I was at your 1987 show and it was one of the best shows I've ever seen." He's a really nice guy. I didn't even know that she was pregnant, I'm so happy for them both.

John - Well, that's probably because she kept it quiet.

Daryl - I really think she's one of the most talented songwriters out there. I love that kind of stuff.

John - Hey this has been so much fun. I think it's the longest interview I've ever had in my life.

Daryl - Here too. It's been a lot of fun. This is how I look at interviews. If you connect with the certain interviewer I feel it's almost like therapy because you're bringing out some things that maybe you haven't said out loud before. You really have made me think about what was an important moment. I felt like I was on 'Inside the Actors Studio' where the guy asks them very different questions. You actually have to sit and think about it.

John - Well , thanks Daryl that's great to hear.

Daryl - I think there's only one of those questions I couldn't answer. Thanks John, it's been a lot of fun.

Interview from April 9/02